anyfoo
Great project! Kudos for figuring out all that stuff on
your own. Assuming you are actually reading these
comments, a few suggestions:* C compilers that can target
16 bit x86 usually have support for "far pointers", which
are 32 bit wide pointers consisting of both a 16 bit
segment and a 16 bit offset. You should be able to use
that instead of your assembly wrappers. This allows you to
directly access screen memory in C, i.e. letting the
compiler do the job of setting up the segment registers,
which also has the great benefit of not having to push,
write, and pop ES for every byte (if you copy a block into
screen memory for example, the compiler only needs to set
up the destination register once).* The IVT is
correspondingly also a list of FAR pointers. It's a common
16 bit x86 concept. The CPU knows about them, they are
also more generally used for far jumps and far calls.* As
others have said, just pick one of the many, many
available text mode font ROMs.* I'm curious how compatible
that AMD Elan is to actual PCs. Probably a lot, since by
that time PCs were kind of the x86 standard, though not
necessarily. The earlier 80186 with its integrated
peripherals (interrupt controller etc.) was very
incompatible, for example. Shouldn't impede your project,
just dictates how easily you can run DOS programs overall.
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> userbinator
I'm curious how compatible that AMD Elan is to actual
PCs.It's 100% PC/AT compatible, a "PC-on-a-chip" type
SoC.
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dquigley
Cool project! This reminds me of Chis Noeding's YouTube
Channel, where he's been posting his progress on running
custom firmware on the newer Behringer X32 mixers -
https://www.youtube.com/@pcdimmer
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> initramfs
The Github page that the article links to at the
bottom is Chris Noeding. Thus they are the same.
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userbinator
The requirements for DOS are much less than for true
PC-compatibility, which is why there were many
"DOS-compatible" x86 machines in the early days, but they
soon fell out of favour as the truly IBM PC-compatible
clones took over.I found this part of the process
unusual:In total my final font-header-file is about 22kB
but it was a great relief to use AI for this dumb task.
Google Gemini produced a nice font for my BIOS. On
individual characters I had to fix some
pixel-errorsInstead of simply searching for one of the
numerous font-dumps that exist on the Internet, which will
already be 100% correct for all of CP437? The CGA font
would be a good match (and the one he ended up using looks
like it), but there are plenty of other 8x8 fonts
available.
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> antonvs
> Instead of simply searching for one of the numerous
font-dumps that exist on the InternetOn the other hand
I enjoy reading about all the things people are
recreating with LLMs, since it gives an idea of what's
not just possible, but actually practical, in case I
ever need something similar.(This may be a short-lived
preference though, if it gets to the point where just
about anything within reason is practical.)
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> > userbinator
It's one thing to use an LLM to create something
new, but to get it to regurgitate an imperfect
version of something that already exists and is
easily found, and then have to spend time fixing
it, hardly seems like a good use.
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> > > picofarad
Okay now you're someplace without internet but
you have your 128GB workstation laptop with a
24GB GPU. Still waiting to work on a project
that has assets "online if you just search"?Or
are you going to make a font by hand? From
memory?Not everything has to be done the way
you think it needs to be done.
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> > > > userbinator
but you have your 128GB workstation laptop
with a 24GB GPU...which has a VBIOS you
can extract the font from.
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> > > > > AshamedCaptain
Just one? Even your standard Linux
install will contain a couple dozen
such fonts.Most likely, the goal here
was copyright laundering.
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> > > > > > anyfoo
There's a bunch of free character
roms as well.
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dcrazy
Since the article assumes familiarity with the DDX3216 (or
the lack of need thereof), I had to look it up: the
DDX3216 was released in 2002, assuming this Sound on Sound
review is contemporary:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/behringer-ddx3216More
background information: the Behringer brand has always
very intentionally targeted the budget-conscious customer.
One way they have achieved their low price targets has
been to straight-up clone competitors' products, building
them with cheaper components and cheaper labor.But they
also do their own R&D, both within, erm, "familiar"
physical form factors and in totally novel designs. I have
no idea if this product is specifically inspired by any
other studio-in-a-box, but my gut reaction is that no
other competitor in this space would have sourced a damn
386-compatible CPU for such a product line in 2002.My
guess is Behringer got a great deal on some second-source
manufacturer's last stock of 386s (maybe in bankruptcy?),
and only that kind of deal would have enabled Behringer to
enter this market.If anyone has a more informed take, I
would love to waste time reading about the history of this
thing!
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> userbinator
but my gut reaction is that no other competitor in
this space would have sourced a damn 386-compatible
CPU for such a product line in 2002.These days ARM and
Linux seems to be the go-to, but DOS and embedded x86
has a long history stemming from the glory days of the
IBM PC architecture and the openness of its software
ecosystem. You could easily write and test your
application on a PC (perhaps with additional
peripheral card(s) that would be integrated into the
target) and then directly run the binary on the target
device.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_%C3%89lanhttp
s://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_9110_Communicator
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> rasz
There is a precedence for embedding x86 in music
hardware. Roger Linn's original LM-1, LinnDrum and
Linn 9000
(http://studiorepair.com/gallery/Linn/9000/index.html
https://www.elektronauts.com/t/the-seminal-groovebox-l
inn-90...) were full 8088 PCs with custom cards.
Successor MPC60 designed by Roger Linn for Akai was
powered by Intel 80186. Final Linn's sampler, the
legendary Akai MPC3000 is based on SOC form (NEC V53)
of NEC V33, a 80186 compatible with microcode replaced
by hardwired logic giving it clock for clock
performance of 286 and immunity from Intel Microcode
lawsuits.
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> > bzzzt
It's coming to an end due to the proliferation of
cheap ARM boards. I think the Korg Kronos is the
last holdout using a standard x86 PC mainboard
now.
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> > > ajxs
The Sequential Prophet X is another modern
synth with a full-blown x86 PC running inside
it. You can see the mainboard in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8QDCocnt0M
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> > > > bzzzt
I know, but it's been discontinued 2 years
ago. As far as I know only the Kronos is
still available new.
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> > > dcrazy
Fascinating, thank you!
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naturalmovement
Using x86 in embedded products is not new, especially
older ones from the 90s, it was extremely common actually
to run DOS or VXworks or QNX. It's all over industrial
products. In fact Intel still shipped 386 CPUs until a few
years ago.* It's cool and all but if we wrote blog posts
about all of them you'd be set for the next 10 years.*
Supposedly 2007 but that does not sound right for embedded
customers unless Intel built a lifetime supply.
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> duskwuff
> unless Intel built a lifetime supplyThis is standard
practice for low-volume legacy parts. A single
production run will often yield enough parts for
months or even years of demand; once demand gets low
enough, the manufacturer will just sell what's left of
the last batch, and discontinue the part when that
runs out.
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> > initramfs
Since they are out of patent, curious if anyone
would be willing to manufacture it again.
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> > > duskwuff
If there wasn't enough demand ~20 years ago
for Intel to continue manufacturing the part,
it's far less likely that there's enough
demand now to justify designing,
manufacturing, and qualifying a new part to
replace it.
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> > > > initramfs
Wafer.space slots can support around
4-500,000 transistors in 1x1 titles,
usually reserved for 1000 dies. The 386
(non SLC version) had 275,000. In theory
this could be manufactured at 180nm/130nm
https://wafer.space/
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> > > > > echoangle
But then you would have to redo the
whole layout and design of the chip
right? Surely you can't just scale the
mask and manufacture the same chip at
different scales and everything still
works?
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> > > > > > picofarad
Check out the Intel Quark, it was
a <50mhz x86 that was resized and
re-done on a smaller feature fab
and runs on a watch battery (its a
bios battery), a full x86 SOC!I
dont know what feats of
engineering went into it, it is
discontinued, but it is a very
tiny x86
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> > > > > > andrewf
The Quark core lives on as a
control processor inside Intel
CPUs -
https://pbx.sh/intelme_talk.pdf
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> userbinator
A lot of SoCs in monitors have a 186-compatible
core:https://www.cpushack.com/2013/01/12/the-intel-801
86-gets-tur...
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initramfs
I found a 386 compatible linux image:
https://github.com/hatonthecat/linux_distro_tests/commit/8
16...
It's a floppy image, although there are other bootable
isos in on of the other folders.
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HerbManic
I went into this think "Oh another mini x86 board, thats
cool". I was not expecting a mixing deck to pop up. Very
nice.
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fsckboy
same number of characters, 386 is more informative than
x86
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theMMaI
The DDX3216 was such a nice piece of tech to work with,
sure it had its flaws, but compared to what else was out
there the value was just insane for the time.
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